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Updated Research Web
Wed May 08, 2013 5:20 pm by NickTheNick
Okay guys, here is my first Devblog to fulfill my responsibility as Strategy Team lead.

Finally I have procured some work to show for my efforts in conceptualizing the Strategy Mode. The Research Web is a pivotal component of post-sapience gameplay, as it is what drives your species forwards from the Awakening stage to their final steps into Ascension. Through a graphing program, I have managed …

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 Cultural Themes and Traits

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Mysterious_Calligrapher
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PostSubject: Re: Cultural Themes and Traits   Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:39 pm

I'm pretty sure that most of the underlying things you've been talking about are functions of how a society worked during one or more periods of stress, Rex. So maybe we could also look at points of stress and points of change? I'll have a nose around - I'm patchy on a multitude of areas, so maybe I'll find something.

Hmm... Rex, the idea of "religion is bad" is probably a combination of factors, so I suggest we look into that particular prejudice as well.

and @ Raven - clarified.
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PostSubject: Re: Cultural Themes and Traits   Thu Mar 31, 2011 1:05 am

Tenebrarum wrote:
US_of Alaska wrote:
I'm not sure i understand. We need to talk about events that changed prejudices? So you mean like the women's rights movement? And what is this going to do? Find a trigger? I'm pretty sure the trigger is always someone saying enough is enough and everyone else joining in.


Actually, I'm looking for the more basic foundations of society. Gender roles, racism vs. tolerance, class vs. fluidity vs. fluid class, that sort of thing.

So what are we talking about in game terms? I'm guessing something about the animations and affecting leader popularity, as well as affecting diplomacy?
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Tenebrarum
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PostSubject: Re: Cultural Themes and Traits   Thu Mar 31, 2011 4:35 pm

US_of_Alaska wrote:
Tenebrarum wrote:
US_of Alaska wrote:
I'm not sure i understand. We need to talk about events that changed prejudices? So you mean like the women's rights movement? And what is this going to do? Find a trigger? I'm pretty sure the trigger is always someone saying enough is enough and everyone else joining in.


Actually, I'm looking for the more basic foundations of society. Gender roles, racism vs. tolerance, class vs. fluidity vs. fluid class, that sort of thing.

So what are we talking about in game terms? I'm guessing something about the animations and affecting leader popularity, as well as affecting diplomacy?

Culture effects everything remember. It effects events that cause (un)happiness, popularity, all things relating to demographics, stability, religious codes, religious tolerance, philosophical attidutes, everything.

Don't worry about translating into game format just yet. Give me the different cultural tropes straight, so I can go through and we can talk about what should and should not be reflected in gameplay.
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PostSubject: Re: Cultural Themes and Traits   Thu Mar 31, 2011 5:41 pm

Tenebrarum wrote:
US_of_Alaska wrote:
Tenebrarum wrote:
US_of Alaska wrote:
I'm not sure i understand. We need to talk about events that changed prejudices? So you mean like the women's rights movement? And what is this going to do? Find a trigger? I'm pretty sure the trigger is always someone saying enough is enough and everyone else joining in.


Actually, I'm looking for the more basic foundations of society. Gender roles, racism vs. tolerance, class vs. fluidity vs. fluid class, that sort of thing.

So what are we talking about in game terms? I'm guessing something about the animations and affecting leader popularity, as well as affecting diplomacy?

Culture effects everything remember. It effects events that cause (un)happiness, popularity, all things relating to demographics, stability, religious codes, religious tolerance, philosophical attidutes, everything.

Don't worry about translating into game format just yet. Give me the different cultural tropes straight, so I can go through and we can talk about what should and should not be reflected in gameplay.


basic speaking walk outside look around how we do now our things and that we need to process and that of 15000BC till today (it might easily be 25.000BC) so if we actualy need to collect this much data we will be talking about a terrabyte of crude info that needs to be crushed into workable content so this thingy might take month's work but the upside if we do it directly nearly perfect we don't have to worry about it anymore just when chance happens to our current things yeah then we need to add that new lair of info

and yeah i'm serious about trying to process a lot of data atleast the period of 10.000 BC till 500 AD and 1900 till 1945 will be time tables that i will be researching a lot into

*note* if my mouse decides to die this weekend that would be a thing i don't want to think about as he is already semi dead
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PostSubject: Re: Cultural Themes and Traits   Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:18 pm

Raven Destroyer wrote:
basic speaking walk outside look around how we do now our things and that we need to process and that of 15000BC till today (it might easily be 25.000BC) so if we actualy need to collect this much data we will be talking about a terrabyte of crude info that needs to be crushed into workable content so this thingy might take month's work but the upside if we do it directly nearly perfect we don't have to worry about it anymore just when chance happens to our current things yeah then we need to add that new lair of info

and yeah i'm serious about trying to process a lot of data atleast the period of 10.000 BC till 500 AD and 1900 till 1945 will be time tables that i will be researching a lot into

*note* if my mouse decides to die this weekend that would be a thing i don't want to think about as he is already semi dead

10000 BC to 500 AD? Woah there boy! Slow down! That's a lot of work! And like 4000 different cultures to cover!

ALso, put down area.
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PostSubject: Re: Cultural Themes and Traits   Fri Apr 01, 2011 9:51 am

I think you'll find that a lot of them repeat. For example, the Romans thought that the Britons were "primitive" and "stupid" because they didn't have the same military technology, and the Romans wanted to conquer them anyway. Eventually, the Britons set out building their own empire, and encountered many other civilizations, considering them to be "primitive" and "stupid" and many other variations on the same theme, because they had military technology that didn't work so well against them, and they wanted to take over. History repeats itself a lot, even though there are both common and individual factors in every situation.
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PostSubject: Re: Cultural Themes and Traits   Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:57 pm

Tenebrarum wrote:
Raven Destroyer wrote:
basic speaking walk outside look around how we do now our things and that we need to process and that of 15000BC till today (it might easily be 25.000BC) so if we actualy need to collect this much data we will be talking about a terrabyte of crude info that needs to be crushed into workable content so this thingy might take month's work but the upside if we do it directly nearly perfect we don't have to worry about it anymore just when chance happens to our current things yeah then we need to add that new lair of info

and yeah i'm serious about trying to process a lot of data atleast the period of 10.000 BC till 500 AD and 1900 till 1945 will be time tables that i will be researching a lot into

*note* if my mouse decides to die this weekend that would be a thing i don't want to think about as he is already semi dead

10000 BC to 500 AD? Woah there boy! Slow down! That's a lot of work! And like 4000 different cultures to cover!

ALso, put down area.


thats a lot i know but i will work with the grooved ware people and then the Mediterranean

Mysterious_Calligrapher wrote:
I think you'll find that a lot of them repeat. For example, the Romans thought that the Britons were "primitive" and "stupid" because they didn't have the same military technology, and the Romans wanted to conquer them anyway. Eventually, the Britons set out building their own empire, and encountered many other civilizations, considering them to be "primitive" and "stupid" and many other variations on the same theme, because they had military technology that didn't work so well against them, and they wanted to take over. History repeats itself a lot, even though there are both common and individual factors in every situation.


what you just said comes with the plain human mistake we never look back when we need to hitler repeated Napoleons mistake of attack russia in autumn (when snow is not far away) and they used materials not meant for that terrain
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PostSubject: Re: Cultural Themes and Traits   Fri Apr 01, 2011 2:33 pm

Raven Destroyer wrote:
thats a lot i know but i will work with the grooved ware people and then the Mediterranean

Let me be a bit more specific with what I want then: Only look up one or two cultures. No more then that. Be detailed and specific. Make sure you understand all social strata. Nothing should be overlooked.

Mysterious_Calligrapher wrote:
I think you'll find that a lot of them repeat. For example, the Romans thought that the Britons were "primitive" and "stupid" because they didn't have the same military technology, and the Romans wanted to conquer them anyway. Eventually, the Britons set out building their own empire, and encountered many other civilizations, considering them to be "primitive" and "stupid" and many other variations on the same theme, because they had military technology that didn't work so well against them, and they wanted to take over. History repeats itself a lot, even though there are both common and individual factors in every situation.

Correct. However, there are a vast number of other factors determining how people are dealt with. We'll look at the reasons later, just find your culture and get the information first.
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PostSubject: Re: Cultural Themes and Traits   Fri Apr 01, 2011 5:15 pm

Never said it was simple, Rex. Just pointing out that, functionally, for every single factor that is unique to a certain group/time/place/culture, you're going to get a handful that can be boiled down to the basic mistakes of mankind.

I know you've already got romans and american and brittish history people, so I'll do some sniffing around the rest of the "ancient" world. I'll also take the conquistadores and the mesoamericans.
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PostSubject: Re: Cultural Themes and Traits   Sat Apr 02, 2011 3:45 pm

Mysterious_Calligrapher wrote:
Never said it was simple, Rex. Just pointing out that, functionally, for every single factor that is unique to a certain group/time/place/culture, you're going to get a handful that can be boiled down to the basic mistakes of mankind.

I know you've already got romans and american and brittish history people, so I'll do some sniffing around the rest of the "ancient" world. I'll also take the conquistadores and the mesoamericans.

Do you think you could be a bit more specific about the mesoamericans? While there were plenty of unified cultural tropes, there were also some vast differences in society and theo-political philosophy in various nations.
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PostSubject: Re: Cultural Themes and Traits   Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:07 am

Okay, so i decided to do Australia in the 70s. Because changes in social attitudes are easier to analyse than static social values, at least for me.

So, in the 70s most of Australia became more understanding of people of different genders, sexualities, nations and races. The idea of gender equality was present in Australia since before Federation (1901). More from a progression of the assimilation of cultures of the post-WWII immigrants than anything else, the average Australian also became less racist. This effect was compounded during the Vietnam War. A large number of Australians protested the war, and coming off this event the country began to view the British Monarchy as unnecessary and an impediment on Australian democracy. This led to the first wave of Republicanism in Australia.

So, basically tolerance was heightened because of events in the states (African American Rights Movement and Feminist Movement). It also was given a boost because of it's past strength in Australian culture, which could be traced back to the children of the convicts.

And the public opinion of imperialism was quite suddenly changed. Losing a war seems to have the effect of hating whatever establishment lost.
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PostSubject: Re: Cultural Themes and Traits   Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:27 am

@ Rex: Mostly what I've got is a) conflict between groups under the control of those vast empires of the Aztec and Inca and b) what happened when spanish conquistadores encountered such groups, then c) spanish colonizing of mexico and everything (besides brazil, obviously) to the south.
Specific? I actually have to look up dates and stuff to make sure that things were happening at the times that I think they were happening.
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PostSubject: Re: Cultural Themes and Traits   Mon Apr 04, 2011 1:17 pm

Mysterious_Calligrapher wrote:
@ Rex: Mostly what I've got is a) conflict between groups under the control of those vast empires of the Aztec and Inca and b) what happened when spanish conquistadores encountered such groups, then c) spanish colonizing of mexico and everything (besides brazil, obviously) to the south.
Specific? I actually have to look up dates and stuff to make sure that things were happening at the times that I think they were happening.

Don't worry about dates too much. So long as the chronology is intact, it's fine. Definately what I'm looking for.

US_of_Alaska wrote:
longpost


Good work! Now, I'd like it if we could get some specifics of the rhetoric. That can help a ton when trying to understand people's reasoning.

Now, Australia is something of an odd duck, because we're not dealing with a natural cultural progression, given it's roots. AUstralia was a penal(sp?) colony, and thus we're taking one specific income/class and making it the only real income/class present. If we can get a better sense of it's progression from prison to nation, it'll be easier to make clear statements about the event you speak of.
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PostSubject: Re: Cultural Themes and Traits   Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:45 am

Tenebrarum wrote:
Now, Australia is something of an odd duck, because we're not dealing with a natural cultural progression, given it's roots. AUstralia was a penal(sp?) colony, and thus we're taking one specific income/class and making it the only real income/class present. If we can get a better sense of it's progression from prison to nation, it'll be easier to make clear statements about the event you speak of.

Well, the convict's children naturally grew up with a general distaste for authority and a dislike of the motherland, which had (for the most part unfairly) imprisoned their parents and sent them on a deathship to a far away land that was strange and generally hard to cultivate. These children grew up with cockney-speaking parents, and their language was derived from that lower middle class speech.

Then we have the other side of the equation. Obviously a prison without guards would fail, and so the convicts were accompanied by a large number of British soldiers and officers. The children of these soldiers grew up with strong English loyalties, and also held intact the "proper" English of the Royal Family.

The aboriginals were always treated harshly by the British soldiers, because of their ingrained psyche of Imperialism and English Supremacy. They were mostly killed off or ignored. Later down the line, someone decided that Aboriginals needed to be turned into "white fellas" and took children from the natives to be raised by white Christian families.

The gold rush introduced many other cultures into our nation, but the government of the time spread propaganda and created laws to keep non-whites out and so this effect diminished fairly quickly. It also greatly increased racism around this time, especially towards Asians.

So, the 20th century rolled over with three basic culture groups. The wealthy descendants of the British Army personnel, the descendants of convicts and the Irish, and the Aboriginals that have been forced into white families. The middle class, and even lower high class, were always very egalitarian in their thinking. The classic Australian word "mate" shows this idea of equality and mateship. Even with this ignorance to class, Australians still trusted Britain to be a voice of reason. This is probably because of the simple parental instincts our history brought out.

After the World Wars, mass immigration to Australia occurred, and this time the government welcomed it with open arms. This led to a new wave of multiculturalism and tolerance that has only recently diminished to racist anti-refugee campaigns in parliament.

Basically:
Convict heritage = contempt for authority and imperialism
British heritage = separation of classes (the large proportion of Australians who disliked Britain wanted the opposite, probably just because it's the opposite of what Britain wanted).
Aboriginal influence = racism from imperialism, thinking other colours and cultures are "below" English culture.
Gold Rush = Racism to Asians who immigrated to Australia.
Post-WWII Immigration = Reduced racism
9/11 = Same effect as other Western Nations - renewed racism for Arabic peoples.
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PostSubject: Re: Cultural Themes and Traits   Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:49 am

[quote="US_of_Alaska"]Longpost. [quote]
That's a good way to break it down. I've got a class system coming from imperialism too, so I'm starting to think that it's one of the commonalities. (Though there are other class systems in other times that don't necessarily stem from imperialism...) I need to go home and get my books, though.

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